Subway today

[dave2]

Let's say Partick, Hillhead, Kelvinbridge, Buchanan Street, St Enoch, Shields Road, Cessnock, and Govan stay open. That's two trains per circle (which can go faster with fewer stops, so possibly still offering an 8 minute service), so 8 new station staff and 4 drivers. I guess there's always somebody on control duty anyway, but probably more during open hours, so let's add two more people there. That's, what, 2? 3? 4? thousand pounds per week in wages? (aside from one-time costs such as training), and probably a slight increase in maintenance costs.

The Unions at SPT do seem to wield an awful lot of power...... 12 staff at £20k p.a. is £240k........ - using £20k as a mean between Drivers, which IIRC I saw advertised rates of £25k, and ticket office staff, who ia ssume are slightly over minimum wage - approx £15k (including holidays and sundays in all cases)

West St strikes me as a pointless station at weekends/evenings, especially with the loss of the P&R - could easily be shut outside peak travel times. Given the new proposed Crossrail station there, it would make sens eto keep the station and possibly reopen it to full operation when/if Crossrail is built.

Not sure either why SPT have a;ll stations staffed when other udnerground systems manage without staffing every station, and use automated machines for tickets, and good CCTV control, liked to specific security / police patrols (could have elss than 15 staff on duty at any one time....... There would be issues with vagrants, homeless sleeping in the stations, and locking up / opening up the stations though....

[sds]

http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&ct=res&cd=2&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.itso.org.uk%2Fcontent%2FPresentations%2FJonathan%2520Young.ppt&ei=JDfoR8LNLYK6wAHg5PDJAg&usg=AFQjCNFJyWeXoCvYsb6f9I9lPNhc92roMQ&sig2=iCmAaRg75wpU9a1MkZuptQ
http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Publications ... 0277/46968

http://www.transportscotland.gov.uk/reports/publications-and-guidance/corporate/j9421-04.htmDuring 2007/08 we will begin implementing a smartcard system across all 300 bus operators in Scotland that will allow efficiencies to be achieved in the form of improved validation of bus operator claims.

From the above, it seems that the smart cards for concessionary fares are the first step of proving the technology on buses - in London, although the system covers bus train, underground and ferries, the points are all much closer, and a rural area like Scotland will no doubt have teething issues.

Wow, I hadn't considered doing it Scotland-wide. I was clearly thinking small by thinking Greater Glasgow...

Congratulations on somebody thinking big!

[dave2]

SPT are IIRC just a local implementation agency, and TS now have the big ideas. After all, they are responsible for all transport in Scotland, and this way we can have a national scheme covering rail, bus, ferry, subway and coach.

[sds]

SPT are IIRC just a local implementation agency, and TS now have the big ideas. After all, they are responsible for all transport in Scotland, and this way we can have a national scheme covering rail, bus, ferry, subway and coach.

Yes, true. It sounds good. It sounds like some honest-to-god 21st century thinking which, and clearly I'm getting too cynical, comes as quite a surprise, albeit a pleasant one.

[dave2]

Some of the people at TS appear, from their statements and press releases etc to a) udnerstand transport b)not be tied to a political party c) worked outside Scotland and d) be allowed to get on with improving transport and not dragged into petty party or area political games......

[Dexter St. Clair]

The Unions at SPT do seem to wield an awful lot of power...... 12 staff at £20k p.a. is £240k........ - using £20k as a mean between Drivers, which IIRC I saw advertised rates of £25k, and ticket office staff, who ia ssume are slightly over minimum wage - approx £15k (including holidays and sundays in all cases)

The tool of the management like Alien finally appears. So unstaffed stations are the way to go.

Let's have a letter to that effect to the ET and see the response.


I do so hope that you too are just above the minimum wage or do you get your big money for the use of your brawn.

£5.40 x 35 x52 = £15000. Could someone with a calculator check that.

[sds]

£5.40 x 35 x52 = £15000. Could someone with a calculator check that.

While £15k is way off for minimum wage, you'll see that I used very generous wages for the subway staff in my calculations above. ie, my additional cost per week is probably on the higher-end of what these extensions would really cost....

[red_kola]

NI, Pension contributions, various other overheads. Do you have any idea what the actual cost of a member of staff on 20K pa is to an employer?

[sds]

NI, Pension contributions, various other overheads. Do you have any idea what the actual cost of a member of staff on 20K pa is to an employer?

I ran numbers on gross wages (and costed high), it's true, but I'm sure there are more costs to take into account as you point out. BAs a ballpark figure though, the cost looks surprisingly low. Considering the underground carries an average of more than 36,000 passengers a day, and that could only rise if operating hours were longer, I'm never convinced by the argument that it costs too much.

How much does it cost to keep the quieter stations open all day? They're surely not cost effective. They're running at a loss. Public transport naturally sometimes makes a loss -- busy services subsidise quiet ones. (But quiet services also feed busy services; it's an interesting cycle.) And can anybody really suggest that the underground would have no customers on a Sunday after 6pm? Or on a weeknight after 11pm?

In other words, to extend the service, they may have to take a hit in terms of raw profit, but they'll attract new customers. Or, they might naturally gain profit and customers, if they were to just catch the pubs closing. Or they could instigate a £1.30 (rather than £1.10) single fare after 11pm to help make up the shortfall. I don't know how they'd do it or what they'd do, but we do have a backward little underground that desperately needs brought into the 21st century.

Everybody's concern seems to be that to extend the operating hours, all stations must be open, and all prices must be the same. I'm not convinced either of those arguments make sense.

[Dexter St. Clair]

(But quiet services also feed busy services;

Didn't Thatcher make cross subsidy illegal? I'm not saying it doesn't happen as Glasgow is currently subsidising the Edinburgh bus wars.

Code: Select all

Considering the underground carries an average of more than 36,000 passengers a day, and that could only rise if operating hours were longer,

and profits would invariably lower.

Or, they might naturally gain profit and customers, if they were to just catch the pubs closing.

They never caught teh subway home when tye pubs shut at ten and the subway closed at 10;30.

The subway carries commuters anybody else is just costs the subway money. The subway could close at 10:00 and re open at 16:00 and the profits would be bigger than they are now. Opening on a Sunday after 18:00 is even more meaningless than running the Nightrider service.

[samscafeamericain]

I suppose the concept of the subway being a public service is long gone

[sds]

I suppose the concept of the subway being a public service is long gone

Clearly. Though to keep hearing good noises that they might extend opening hours, and by trialling late-night schemes (such as the poorly implemented nightrider), there's definitely a rumbling awareness within SPT of their responsibilities.

The subway carries commuters anybody else is just costs the subway money. The subway could close at 10:00 and re open at 16:00 and the profits would be bigger than they are now. Opening on a Sunday after 18:00 is even more meaningless than running the Nightrider service.

Wow. I can't help but feel you're trolling, but I'll bite.

You're forgetting the number of people who use the subway during the day (there are nearly 20,000 students at Glasgow University and over 5,000 staff, almost all of whom work flexible hours; there are games played and people training at Ibrox all the time; there are people who catch trains or buses from Central, Queen Street, Partick, and Govan all day; then there's the parking at Shields Road which many can and do use every day of the week to nip into town. Remember that most people don't work 9-5. I'm really not sure what you have against the idea of running sane hours suitable for a modern city in the 21st century.

Public transport isn't all about profit. Good lord, of course running a service costs money. Those commuters require SPT puts on more drivers at select hours, and they wear the trains down faster, and more cleaning staff have to be employed. Let's shut the underground during commuter's hours! When there's something big on at Ibrox, think of all the security that has to be hired. That costs money! Clearly, the underground should be shut then too.

[dimairt]

The price of an all-day ticket has gone up to £2.50, a rise of 60p or loads of per cent - you do the maths. Please tell me that they increased it yesterday - April Fool's Day - it would be fitting.
That's quite a rise at a time when the Great Leader is exhorting me to accept a below-inflation pay rise for the umpteenth year in a row.
(While I'm having a moan, could I just say that I bought tickets for a concert today and was charged a £3 "booking fee": we're going to charge you for buying something from us.)


Le durachd,

Eddy

[sds]

The price of an all-day ticket has gone up to £2.50, a rise of 60p or loads of per cent - you do the maths. Please tell me that they increased it yesterday - April Fool's Day - it would be fitting.
That's quite a rise at a time when the Great Leader is exhorting me to accept a below-inflation pay rise for the umpteenth year in a row.

Yes, the tickets went up yesterday, but they've had signs up at all stations for over a month, so no surprises. To be fair, the price hike makes some sense: one journey is cheaper than two is cheaper than many. It was always a bit silly that the discovery was cheaper than a return. (Though it's now a bit silly that you can't buy a discovery before 9:30. Where's the logic in that if the pricing structure is sane?)

I don't grudge them the extra money, so long as it's going toward the proposed extensions to the subway prior to the commonwealth 2014 which, if they have any foresight at all, it is.

That said, the "discovery ticket" has always been a bit of a silly name. Why not be done with it and call it an "all day ticket"? Too pragmatic for SPT?

[sds]

Subway closed because of flooding
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/7332208.stm