High St bend

Moderators: John, Sharon, Fossil, Lucky Poet, crusty_bint, Jazza, dazza

High St bend

Postby kokotheclown » Mon Feb 21, 2005 10:39 am

Something thats always puzzled me. Why does the High Street Not go straight down to the cross from the Cathedral? Just north of George St it does that mental bend and from the old maps it looks like it always has.
kokotheclown
Busy bunny
Busy bunny
 
Posts: 29
Joined: Mon Aug 09, 2004 11:41 am
Location: munich

Postby crusty_bint » Mon Feb 21, 2005 10:45 am

Easiest way down the hill maybe? Good question!
here i go, it's coming for me through the trees
crusty_bint
-
-
 
Posts: 4425
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2004 3:52 pm
Location: Glasgow

Postby kokotheclown » Mon Feb 21, 2005 3:30 pm

Here is my (probably nonsense) theory.

I'd have expected that the orignal road from the Cathedral/Castle complex would have headed almost directly towards the most convenient River crossing. That would have been the bridge at Stockwell St. High St north of George St seems to align along that direction. That would mean that the High St. is not bent upwards from George St but below it towards the Cross, which makes sense as the Cross came later.

It would also explain the strange shape of the Briggait were the new High St road (Saltmarket) has to bend back round to get to the Stockwell St bridge.

Eventually they just built a bridge directly south of the Cross.

It would mean that the original road is lost but it may have been nothing more than a track anyway. It also doesn't explain why the cross was developed out of the way of the main drag at that time.
kokotheclown
Busy bunny
Busy bunny
 
Posts: 29
Joined: Mon Aug 09, 2004 11:41 am
Location: munich

Postby Schiehallion » Mon Feb 21, 2005 8:58 pm

It could be something as simple as boggy ground immediately south of where Duke St would later appear. On old maps the road (as Castle St) runs parallel with the Molendinar as it passes the cathedral. The Molendinar takes a big turn at Drygate then heads south-west and High St turns too, keeping a certain distance between it and the burn.

I suppose if that was the case then it explains Drygate being known as such if the land immediately south of it was wet.
User avatar
Schiehallion
Third Stripe
Third Stripe
 
Posts: 1625
Joined: Sat Mar 20, 2004 9:32 pm

Postby Bruce » Tue Feb 22, 2005 1:50 pm

Schiehallon - sounds very probable.

Also - The high street wasn't originally anything particularly special - it was just the street that linked the cathedral area with Glasgow Cross. I suspect the curve is to simply allow the road to curve round the hill (rather than plumetiing straight down it) and thus reduce the gradient.
... they’re all made out of ticky tacky, and they all look just the same.
Bruce
First Stripe
First Stripe
 
Posts: 49
Joined: Fri Oct 29, 2004 5:37 pm
Location: The Land of Shaws.

Postby escotregen » Tue Feb 22, 2005 1:53 pm

kokotheclown this is a facinating wee question. I don't know if the following might throw light on The Bend, but it's something I picked up from somewhere. Maybe The Bend is to do with the tenement adaptation design or the fact that a village was settled there on a hillside? The extract is a description of the High Street going north after the George Street intersection:

"The north-eastern corner of the junction of High Street and George Street/Duke Street is overlooked by the five-storey City Improvement Trust tenements .... Learning from visits to Paris, to see the work of Baron Haussmann, the trustees were very successful in adapting the traditional tenement house style to rehouse many thousands of people. High Street now curves round and climbs quite steeply through a canyon of tenements up to Rottenrow which is met on the left. This spot was originally known as the Bell o' the Brae and a village developed here in medieval times. Tradition has it that around 1297, during the Scottish Wars of Independence, William Wallace's forces attacked and defeated a force of English soldiers here, with Wallace personally dispatching Earl Percy, the English Governor."
escotregen
Third Stripe
Third Stripe
 
Posts: 1073
Joined: Tue Jan 13, 2004 3:35 pm
Location: glasgow

Postby kokotheclown » Tue Feb 22, 2005 3:42 pm

Now its just a road to the cross, but before the cross was there there must have been a road from the castle/cathedral towards the river. This I reckon was a different route. We'd need a map from before the establishment of the cross. I'm not totally convinced about curving round the hill (unless there were defensive features there at some point). The Royal Mile in Edinburgh goes straight down the hill.
kokotheclown
Busy bunny
Busy bunny
 
Posts: 29
Joined: Mon Aug 09, 2004 11:41 am
Location: munich

Postby Bruce » Tue Feb 22, 2005 5:07 pm

kokotheclown wrote: The Royal Mile in Edinburgh goes straight down the hill.


The Royal Mile in Edinburgh runs along the ridge - the closest comparison in Glasgow is probably Rottenrow - which apparently was one of the first developed streets in Glasgow (after the Drygate).

Medieval Glasgow just didn't have the same classic burgh layout of say Edinburgh or Stirling (in comparison Glasgow was a complete backwater)

kokotheclown wrote:We'd need a map from before the establishment of the cross


Very much doubt if such a thing exists.

I think the earliest detailed map is the 1773 one by Charles Ross http://www.nls.uk/digitallibrary/map/early/641.html
... they’re all made out of ticky tacky, and they all look just the same.
Bruce
First Stripe
First Stripe
 
Posts: 49
Joined: Fri Oct 29, 2004 5:37 pm
Location: The Land of Shaws.

Postby donjuan » Tue Feb 22, 2005 5:22 pm

Very much doubt if such a thing exists.

I think the earliest detailed map is the 1773 one by Charles Ross


Here's a map from 1547

http://www.theglasgowstory.com/imageview.php?inum=TGSA00524
[url=http://www.last.fm/user/DonJuanHG/?chartstyle=overallnamostylewoborder] [img]http://imagegen.last.fm/overallnamostylewoborder/recenttracks/DonJuanHG.gif[/img] [/url]
User avatar
donjuan
Second Stripe
Second Stripe
 
Posts: 147
Joined: Tue Feb 08, 2005 1:36 am
Location: Edinburgh originally from Knightswood

Postby Schiehallion » Tue Feb 22, 2005 6:31 pm

And when you look at that map from 1547 it is very clear that unless High St takes a turn, it will hit the Molendinar by the time it reaches where the Blackfriar Cemetery now sits.
User avatar
Schiehallion
Third Stripe
Third Stripe
 
Posts: 1625
Joined: Sat Mar 20, 2004 9:32 pm

Postby kokotheclown » Wed Feb 23, 2005 7:05 pm

Out of interest, and it may be related to this topic, where exactly was the "Bell of the Brae", the site of the original Glasgow cross?
kokotheclown
Busy bunny
Busy bunny
 
Posts: 29
Joined: Mon Aug 09, 2004 11:41 am
Location: munich

Postby Schiehallion » Wed Feb 23, 2005 8:25 pm

The Bell of the Brae is that steep part that veers right, going up the High St from George St to the Drygate. In fact, according to Blind Harry's account, Wallace and his 300 men made their way "o'er Glasgow bridge that was of tree" and headed up the High St. He then sent his uncle, Auchinleck round by the Drygate.

As Lord Percy charged down the High St to meet Wallace, Auchinleck's men came in behind them both Auchinleck and Wallace gave the English, sandwiched between them, a good doing on that stretch just south of the Drygate.

Blind Harry states the English who survived headed for the Friar's Kirk (which is shown on that 1574 map) before fleeing to Bothwell with Wallace in hot pursuit.
User avatar
Schiehallion
Third Stripe
Third Stripe
 
Posts: 1625
Joined: Sat Mar 20, 2004 9:32 pm

Postby dazed_and_confused » Mon Dec 19, 2005 5:42 pm



Sorry for digging up an old thread, but I've noticed something after looking at various maps of the area. If you extend the line of High street ignoring the bend, it will line up perfectly with Castle street. Could just be a coincidence, but I thought it was worthy of a mention.
User avatar
dazed_and_confused
First Stripe
First Stripe
 
Posts: 42
Joined: Mon Oct 03, 2005 9:51 pm
Location: Manchester

Postby crusty_bint » Mon Dec 19, 2005 6:07 pm

Thanks for digging this up! These threads are not older: they're just better! (one to tell the kids :wink: )

That could make sense as it is known/thought there was an iron age fort and settlement centred on the Hill of Rottenrow (Kings Road). If the Road were straight, as is inferred in the legend of Mungo's arrival at Cathures with the body of Fergus via the "long straight road with no path", you could hypothesise that the road was diverted as to pass by the Bishop's Castle on its construction for the purposes of security and toll collection. Interestingly Jack House states that Mungo's original settlement at the Cathedral Precinct was founded on "the place on where a minor Roman road came down a glen and accross a ford" so you're probably correct, but do the foundations of this road lie deeper in the strata of history?

Makes you wonder doesn't it?

Crusty :)
crusty_bint
-
-
 
Posts: 4425
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2004 3:52 pm
Location: Glasgow

Postby scallopboy » Mon Dec 19, 2005 7:01 pm

As another thought the bend in the road could have been to do with avoiding ground that was not suitable for road building and only at a later date the land was used. Even now road building take the couse of lowest cost to avoid boggy ground. The problems with removing the roundabout at Auchenkilns and the new slip roads being built on peat spring to mind. The construcion had to add pilings to the ground that must have added on a bit to the cost, it certainly extended the construction time.

Alternatively, it could have been to do with the ownership of the land, taking a curve to avoid an area, similar to the Grahamstoun kink we still see today in Hope St.
User avatar
scallopboy
Third Stripe
Third Stripe
 
Posts: 1325
Joined: Sun Jul 03, 2005 5:34 pm
Location: Strathbungo

Next

Return to Glasgow Chat (Coffee Lounge)

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 30 guests