Planning Application - Arnold Clark, Vinicombe Street

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Planning Application - Arnold Clark, Vinicombe Street

Postby Timchilli » Tue Jun 12, 2007 2:01 am

Picked up a flyer about this the other day and thought it merited a mention on here:

http://www.myspace.com/botanicgardensgarage

Arnold Clark want to demolish this listed building and replace it with a new 4-storey structure incorporating flats, cottages, retail space, and a restaurant.


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Re: Arnold Clark, Vinicombe Street

Postby Graham » Tue Jun 12, 2007 6:26 am

Timchilli wrote:Picked up a flyer about this the other day and thought it merited a mention on here:

http://www.myspace.com/botanicgardensgarage

Arnold Clark want to demolish this listed building and replace it with a new 4-storey structure incorporating flats, cottages, retail space, and a restaurant.


Tim


Changed days at Arnold Clark - not so long ago (when Sir Arnold was in control) this would never have happened. They also never rented out any of their property (especially to other car dealers) like they do now and the Park Road showroom (his first) was always in use as a car sales site, even though it probably ran at a loss - for purely sentimental reasons. When the accountants took over a few years back it quickly became an estate agents and the last time I passed was getting another refit for non-motor retail use.

I would imagine quite a few of the group's other under-performing sites (Peat Road springs to mind) that are located in residential areas will follow in short order and the accountants must be salivating at the thought of what the huge Hamilton Road complex would be worth for housing.

Not being a fan of the company and having a penchant to see old garages saved (especially if it riles the Clarks) I think the campaign to save the building is a great idea. I'll start drafting an objection to the planning application right away :wink:

If anyone has any good points to include please postthem and I'll work them into my draft - which i will post back here should anyone else feel like "sticking it to the man" ::):
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Postby nodrog » Tue Jun 12, 2007 11:27 am

Oddly, I can't find any reference to this planning application in any of the usual places where it would normally be listed.
Does anyone have a note of the reference numbers?

Difficult to know exactly how to object without seeing the detail of the application, but in general, Historic Scotland stipulates that three tests need to be met in order to demolish or substantially alter parts of a listed building. These tests involve an assessment of the building's importance, its physical condition and the potential for alternative use. The building must have also been offered for sale at a realistic price on the open market to allow others the opportunity to use it in its current form.

If the application doesn't provide any evidence to help it pass those tests, then thats the things to focus the objections on.
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Postby mrsam » Tue Jun 12, 2007 12:42 pm

Fire buckets on standby :x :cry: :x :cry:

Good luck :!:

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Postby ianmcf » Tue Jun 12, 2007 4:41 pm

That really pissed me off, I was walking distance from the car hire place when I needed one for work :(
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Postby BTJustice » Tue Jun 12, 2007 4:55 pm

That place looks great. I wish my business ( http://www.route9autos.co.uk :wink: ) was in the position where we could afford premises as that would make a great showroom with a diner upstairs.

Hope they dont flatten it.
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Postby johnnyanglia » Wed Jun 13, 2007 12:35 am

I had to ask myself "Is this a joke" ?". How could they even contemplate demolishing this building. Sorry I know the answer ££££££££££££££££££££
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Postby onyirtodd » Mon Jun 25, 2007 12:18 pm

nodrog wrote:Oddly, I can't find any reference to this planning application in any of the usual places where it would normally be listed.
Does anyone have a note of the reference numbers?

Difficult to know exactly how to object without seeing the detail of the application, but in general, Historic Scotland stipulates that three tests need to be met in order to demolish or substantially alter parts of a listed building. These tests involve an assessment of the building's importance, its physical condition and the potential for alternative use. The building must have also been offered for sale at a realistic price on the open market to allow others the opportunity to use it in its current form.

If the application doesn't provide any evidence to help it pass those tests, then thats the things to focus the objections on.


Reference: 07/01809/DC Community Cnl: Hillhead
Address: 24 Vinicombe Street Glasgow G12 8BG
Proposal: Demolition of listed building.
Date Received: 05.06.2007 Date Valid: 05.06.2007
Applicant
Details: Arnold Clark Automobiles
Agent Details: 0141 204 0066
Keppie Panning And Urban Design Ltd
160 West Regent Street GLASGOW G2 4RL
Ward: Hillhead
Type: Listed Building Consent incl Demolition
Case Officer: Mr K Clark, 0141 287 6091
Listing: B Cons Area: Glasgow West
Map Reference: (E) 256831 (N) 667269
238 to 127. All in all a good afternoon's work
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Postby gap74 » Mon Jun 25, 2007 9:58 pm

I went along and had a look at the application on Friday afternoon on my break - only had half an hour before the planning office shut, and I was surprised to be handed a fairly thick folder, so only had time for a cursorary skim through all the material.

But basically, it consisted of the usual - a glossy colour presentation from the architects outlining the case for demolition and the case for the newbuild, with the predictable sunny artists impressions. Two visual surveys of the building, one from 1994, one from 2006. Thick pile of plans.

Architects are Keppie (as in Honeyman, Keppie and Mackintosh, I presume?).

They argue that the current scale and massing of the
garage is out of step with the 4/5 storey tenements
around it, so this is justification for a similarly
scaled new build. Or, to use their phraseology, to
"restore the urban fabric" of the block. Never mind the fact that
the Western Baths/Salon block opposite is mostly 1-2 storeys in
height... Anyways, they propose 33 flats, and another
few penthouses and mews houses.

The garage is said to be of no use to anyone either in its current condition or as a facade retention. Along with
the usual architect's bumph about city plans and aspirations, this is supported by two
reports. The first one was carried out in 1994, the
second in 2006. Both are *visual* surveys only of the
condition of the building. They appear to show that
the building is formed of the ceramic tiled facade,
supported on a steel-framed, concrete front, with
concrete floorpans supported on steel columns behind,
some parts of which have elegant exposed steel roof
trusses. Later alterations are evident to some parts
internally.

The 1994 report concludes that the building is in
"fair" condition, but that there is much evidence that
the steel reinforcement in the concrete is rusting in places,
causing the concrete to expand where this is happened
- efectively rotting from the inside out.

This was due to rainwater ingress (broken drainpipes
etc) and car cleaning operations within the building,
where the drainage was largely faulty. Some cracks in
walls were evident, and the steel frame within the
main facade was rotting in places, causing the
concrete to expand and crack the tiles in places.

The usual options are given - the building has no use
for Arnold Clark anymore, and is claimed unsuitable for rent
to other commercial concerns due to both its condition
and layout, with concerns over whether the floor pans
are capable of their originally designed level of weight-bearing
anymore.

Facade retention is ruled out because the steel frame
would need replacing, effectively meaning that the
whole thing needs dismantling and rebuilding, with no
guarantee the tiles won't all break anyway. So they
say that would effectively amount to demolition
anyway.

The building has no known architect or contractor,
according to the supporting documentation, so cannot
be ascribed as a fine example of a significant
person's work. Odd, took me all of ten seconds to look
it up in the Dictionary of Scottish Architects and attribute it to
this chap:

http://www.codexgeo.co.uk/dsa/architect ... id=M003092

Moreover, it says there that:
"His practice was predominantly industrial with a
preference for polychromatic effects. The Botanic
Gardens Garage suggests he was not without ability."

This seems to be another case of architects proposing a newbuild, rubbishing what is there by repeating
over and over that it has "no particular architectural
or historical significance" in the hope that the
planners will take it as gospel - they say this quite
a few times in the report, also suggesting that its
importance has diminished since listing in 1989, for
no particular reason.

The 2006 inspection is actually much more optimistic
in tone, despite being only two pages. It suggests
various ways in which the actual condition can be
investigated, and even mentions having consulted the
Mitchell for plans - apparently, a first floor plan
there mentions the Hennebique word! The report
suggests this might be in relation to a back wall
which is of reinforced concrete.

Interestingly, there is no evidence that it has been
marketed to third parties, who might want to invest in
retaining the facade - but then we know that doesn't
seem to matter with GCC anymore (see Govanhill Picture House!). Because it's not of use to Arnold Clark anymore, because it's not viable as a let in its current condition and because it's considered too expensive for Arnold Clark to come up with a scheme for flats that retain the facade, they effectively write it off. But GCC's own guidelines (HER 2 in the city plan), Historic Scotland's Memorandum of Guidance, and national NPPG policies all state that listed buildings can't be demolished without extensive marketing taking place to ascertain whether any third party is out there who might have a more sympathetic use for it. Only it's financial viability to Arnold Clark as a let or rebuild seems to have been considered.

The cost of repairing it to a shell was given as 3.341
million. Newbuild is 6.785 million - I think this was
complete newbuild, if it was, it's interesting that no
figure was given for newbuild incorporating facade.

One last thing - the glossy architect's document claimed that
Arnold Clark took steps in the light of the 1994
structural report to alleviate matters. The 2006
structural report, however, notes that "no remedial
work" had taken place after the earlier report was produced. Hmmm....
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Postby Dexter St. Clair » Mon Jun 25, 2007 10:16 pm

Excellent contribution which should be sent to pauline McNeill, and west end councillors. and has it been passed onto Pat's west end web site?
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Postby Socceroo » Mon Jun 25, 2007 10:21 pm

Excellent work Gap74. There is no way it would cost over £3M to make good the fabric and structure of the Garage. More like half that - say £1M+. Not so long ago i was looking after a concrete repair contract where we repaired a huge Car Park for less than £1M.

Another case of a landlord and potential developer presenting a bleak picture of a listed building to justify its destruction, when in actual fact all they are interested in is how many "luxury" apartments they can squeeze into the right post code.
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Postby crusty_bint » Mon Jun 25, 2007 10:29 pm

Thats an absolute joke - but the funniest part is that they have apparently produced a dossier in their application outlining all the reasons why demolition consent should be refused! ::):
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Postby nodrog » Tue Jun 26, 2007 11:13 am

Well, they *really* didn't look too hard to find the architect. The first three books I reached for all had his name quite prominently mentioned....


'The Botanic Gardens Garage, 1911, by D V Wylie, one of the earliest in the city, is handsomely clad in green and cream tiles.'
- Central Glasgow: An Illustrated Architectural Guide
(C McKean, D Walker, F Walker, RIAS / Rutland Press, 1990), p.190-1

'... most of these garages went or were adapted for other purposes. Two remarkable survivors are the early and fine Botanic Gardens Garage of c. 1906 - 11 in Vinicombe Street, Hillhead, with its faience frontage and refined iron framed interior ...'
'... the Botanic Gardens Garage by D V Wylie, 1912, a boldly arched green and white tiled front and an unusual steel-trussed roof and extensively glazed rear wall, crowned with shaped gables.'

- The Buildings of Scotland: Glasgow
(Williamson, Riches, Higgs, Yale, 1990), p. 95, 353


'The oldest custom-built motorcar garage in the West End is the Botanic Gardens garage in Vinicombe Street. It is also the most interesting architecturally. Built c.1912 by architect David V Wylie, the garage has a steel skeleton, a front facade of green and white faience (blocks of glazed terracotta), and a side elevation with large expanses of glazing.
The upper level [...] was reached by a ramp in the pend of the adjacent tenement. This top floor storage area was spanned by barrel-vaulted steel trusses, with one section being glazed. [...] the private lock-up spaces here were simple concertina cages.'

- Along Great Western Road
(G R Urquhart, Stenlake, 2000), p. 105

'Since motor vehicles were relatively rare before 1914, so were garages. The earliest large examples seem to have been those in Hotspur Street, Vinicombe Street, and Berkeley Street.'
- Industrial Archaeology of Glasgow
(Hume, Blackie, 1974), p.114; Plate 74.

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Postby onyirtodd » Tue Jun 26, 2007 11:24 am

[quote="nodrog"].....................

'Since motor vehicles were relatively rare before 1914, so were garages. The earliest large examples seem to have been those in Hotspur Street, Vinicombe Street, and Berkeley Street.'
- Industrial Archaeology of Glasgow
(Hume, Blackie, 1974), p.114; Plate 74


Does anyone know if this refers to the Wylie and Lochhead garage at the corner of Elderslie Sreeet or the garage (attached?) to the Highlander's Institute opposite the Mitchell?
Last edited by onyirtodd on Tue Jun 26, 2007 11:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
238 to 127. All in all a good afternoon's work
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Postby nodrog » Tue Jun 26, 2007 11:34 am

Last edited by nodrog on Tue Jun 26, 2007 12:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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