Identity Cards

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Postby Apollo » Tue Jun 28, 2005 11:40 pm

Captain Brittles wrote:Does anybody know how they are going to force people to take one of these cards. How will it work ? How long will it take to process 40 million people ? What are the consequences of refusing ? etc.

They won't have to force people to take them, they're just going to use the simple technique of making all national/government services available ONLY on presentation of a valid Entitlement Card (and ID card), NHS, pensions, benefits etc. etc.

Refusing will be swept up later. Fines and heavier penalties are in the pipeline if you dig up the earler publicity.

Our hero clearly stated in the debate tonight, that compulsion would be introduced as soon as it was possible, and was always in their minds. It was not in the initial phase, as the realised they could not enforce it if they could not guarantee to able to supply everyone with the very item that was to be made compulsory.

I believe this was followed by a minesterial mumble mumble - not mandatory to carry them - mumble mumble.

I think it's safe to assume that this also means it's in their minds, but as they're not compulsory to have, then there's no point in making them mandatory to carry... at this stage.
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Postby ladylabobo » Wed Jun 29, 2005 1:09 am

this really scares me. As well as finger print and iris scans the card will contain 50 different types of personal information... wtf?

I have things that people could use against me if they found out. I mean, anyone who has a disability or mental health problem could so easily be discriminated against by anyone who has access to this information.

Who will have access to this kind of information? I remember reading somewhere about alerting people such as employers and landlords if their staff/tennants have mental health problems - surely by making this information more available more people will take advantage. It could get your refused for mortgage/car/contents insurance for example... People with mental health problems are already discriminated against in these areas and an ID card can only make it worse.

And while im moaning away - it pisses me off that we're gonna have to pay upwards of £90 for the privilege of something we dont even want.

It'll be like living in one giant big brother house...
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Postby paladin » Wed Jun 29, 2005 5:13 am

Captain Brittles wrote:The goverment just won the vote in the House of commons by 31 - thats about half their majority.


I think it's beginning to sink in that ID cards are not wanted or needed.
http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/politi ... ory=650423

More rebel yell needed, instead of MPs abstaining........ffs.
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Postby Apollo » Wed Jun 29, 2005 11:36 am

Depressing list at the end, only one Scottish MP against?

Katy Clark (Ayrshire North and Arran)


Am I missing something, or is there a secret agenda for us?

One thing I still fail to see is how its not a tax anyway. If it's to be paid for out the public purse, then that's our taxes (that could be better spent elsewhere) and if it's not to be funded in total from the public purse, and we've to pay for the shortfall, compulsorily (regardless of what its called), then isn't that still just taxation since we'd be paying for a governemnt "service"?

Is/was the charge for the card a failed attempt to hide/reduce the real cost of the project, and now that it's escalating, Clarke can chop it since the figure turning into a telephone number anyway, and another billion or so won't make a difference?
Last edited by Apollo on Wed Jun 29, 2005 11:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Vladimir » Wed Jun 29, 2005 11:39 am

What, not Rosie Kane and Tommy Sheridan, theyre always against everything proposed :)
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Postby DMcNay » Wed Jun 29, 2005 12:33 pm

Vladimir wrote:What, not Rosie Kane and Tommy Sheridan, theyre always against everything proposed :)


They're MSPs, not MPs.
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Postby Vladimir » Wed Jun 29, 2005 12:35 pm

But surely the SSP sends a representative to London 8O
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Postby Captain Brittles » Wed Jun 29, 2005 2:52 pm

Vladimir wrote:But surely the SSP sends a representative to London 8O


No Vlad. Well meaning - and sounding - as they are they, their chief function as list MSP's - apart from helping their constitutents, of which I have no knowledge - is to stir things up a bit at Holyrood. Something they do quite well and something that is needed. Mind you, one of them at Westminster might be no a bad idea.

I'm still puzzled about the ID cards and their connection with passports. £70 for the passport with a chip on it and another £30 for the ID card is it ?
What if you don't have a passport and don't ever intend to travel abroad ? What if you don't renew your existing passport because you have no intention of travelling ?
:roll:
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Postby duncan » Wed Jun 29, 2005 6:10 pm

Captain Brittles wrote:I'm still puzzled about the ID cards and their connection with passports. £70 for the passport with a chip on it and another £30 for the ID card is it ?
What if you don't have a passport and don't ever intend to travel abroad ? What if you don't renew your existing passport because you have no intention of travelling ?


initially the ID card will be 'voluntary', and there'll probably be an amendment to the bill to make it compulsory for everyone. While it's voluntary, it might become de facto compulsory, in so much as you maybe won't be able to access certain services without your passport/ID, you will have to renew your passport at some point etc. Passport is a means to an end for the government, as they're able to bolt on requirements to it regarding biometrics (fingerprint/iris/face/DNA/Blood samples etc), they're pretty much essential for a lot of people (unless you want to holiday in the UK forevermore), and people are already paying for them.
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Postby duncan » Wed Jun 29, 2005 6:11 pm

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Postby Apollo » Wed Jun 29, 2005 6:28 pm

It's even more insane seeing it in print than listening to it news snips.

Still, I see his ESP (or is that Mind Control) is still working well, and that he's well briefed on the use of spin, making sure to to refer to the principle and not the potential reality:

I think people in the country think identity cards are in principle a good idea
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Postby Captain Brittles » Wed Jun 29, 2005 7:47 pm

Duncan is remote - above the pish of the other moderators.
Last edited by Captain Brittles on Sat Jul 02, 2005 8:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby paladin » Wed Jun 29, 2005 8:16 pm

Captain Brittles wrote:I can't see how they can legally - or otherwise - force citizens to apply for a passport or renew one if they don't want to.


"Force" maybe the wrong word Capt., you will 'conform' to the idea of ID cards.......otherwise in time you will not have access to essential services unless you can prove that you are who you say you are. 8O (At least that's what the Spin doctors were leading everyone to believe :roll: )
It's a bit like when decimilisation came in, not everyone wanted it but eventually everyone got their shillings, half-crowns, tanners, threepenny bits, pennies and half-pennies taken away from them. :cry:
So they can make you 'conform'.
However, I wouldn't bother too much with the ID cards Capt.,as it is doomed to fail and will NOT become a reality (in our lifetime anyway) :D
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Postby Apollo » Wed Jun 29, 2005 8:30 pm

I wouldn't count on it, they may not come into force as such, but unless the bill is defeated, they will be forced to spend pots of our money pursuing the idea and technology, or lose face.

The sad thing about it is, if they'd been more reasonable and less alarmist, then they could have crept the whole whole thing in by applying proper stealth.

Passports have gone down the route already, and are accepted world-wide.

Majority of folk have them, and they could have issued free passports to us non-travellers, chargeble if we wish to leave the country.

The technology is already in place, so could have been adapted for "entitlement" use, and additional data stored. I understand the passport has greater data strorage than was ever considered for the ID card, as it was supposed to use compression technology and smart data.

New biometric or other technology could have been sneaked in on renewal, or a claim that upgrade revisions were needed.

That's only a minute's thought, and even that makes you wonder why the had to make it so controversial.
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Postby paladin » Wed Jun 29, 2005 8:45 pm

Apollo wrote:I wouldn't count on it, they may not come into force as such, but unless the bill is defeated, they will be forced to spend pots of our money pursuing the idea and technology, or lose face.


Aye, they'll lose face or lose office. Rather vote Tory/Libdem/MRLP before this get's passed.
They will lose face, ID cards will go on the back burner until at least another 30 odd year.
Tony Blair has a hefty mortgage to think about, so he will play safe.
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