The Hidden Glasgow Forums

just another view on google maps of the Molendinar Burn as it visibly passes through Riddrie Cemetary (Provanmill) before passing under what used to be B&Q at Hogganfield, under Cumbernauld Road and connecting with Hogganfield Loch.

http://maps.google.co.uk/?ie=UTF8&t=h&ll=55.877676,-4.184809&spn=0.001968,0.006845&z=18

Hi everyone,

Just joined the site tonight and was having a nosy around when I found this article on the Molendinar.

I've worked in the sewerage industry (primarily in Glasgow) for the last 15 years (started in Strathclyde Regional Council's Sewerage Department - now with Scottish Water) so I have a great interest in all things sewerage/drainage related.

I have access to a large number of old drainage/sewerage drawings/schematics (including of the Molendinar and various other burns in Glasgow) and have a lot of personal knowledge built up from my experience over the years. happy to try to answer any questions anyone might have.

Ben (who did the walk-through of the Molendinar and Camlachie culverts), I salute your curiousity/bravery but for your own safety please don't go repeating your little sojourn again - the water levels in these culverts respond to storm conditions much quicker than you might appreciate so it is a very dangerous exercise without the correct safety equipment and personnel. And that's not to mention the various combined sewer overflows (CSOs) that discharge you-know-what during storm conditions! For example, the large new tunnel that joins the Molendinar from the rear of the Great Eastern Hotel is actually the outlet from a CSO in Hunter Street - I'm sure you can imagine the volume that can be discharged from it just by it's sheer size.

BenCooper wrote:Thank you

That's really odd - I was sure it went out the outfall under the High Court, but it looks like that's a sewer overflow or something, doesn't it? On old maps, the High Court ourflow matches up with the old position of the stream, but I guess they must have realigned it.

The outfall to the south of the High Court is the old Molendinar Burn outfall - the Molendinar and Camlachie Burns merge in the vicinity of the Greendyke Street/Turnbull Street junction and then outfall to the Clyde just downstream of the tidal weir.

The combined sewer overflow (CSO) shown on the sewerage plans uploaded by someone else doesn't actually exist anymore - it was blocked up over 13 years ago (I know this because I was tasked with inspecting it circa 1995 and, with the help of a couple of sewermen, accessed both the sewer manhole and outfall chamber (there's a padlocked gate on it, or at least there was at the time) and could find no overflow arrangement. I'll have to remember to get this updated on our records!

BenCooper wrote:Oh look, I was pretty much bang on

Does your plan show where the upstream tunnel splits into two tunnels? That's as far as I got upstream, and it'd be nice to know where this is.

Ben, I (or rather Scottish Water) have a plan of the proposal for the twin culvert section dating from when it was being planned (late 60s I think from memory). I'll check our records to find out exactly but the downstream end of the twin pipe section of the culvert (i.e. the part you photographed) is in the general vicinity of the top of Whitehill Street (dead-end street on the north side of Alexandra Parade). I'll see if I can retrieve the plan from our archive over the next few weeks and scan it so I can upload it to here.

BenCooper wrote:It definitely doesn't flow under the Necropolis- it goes right down Wishart Street. It does seem to loop under the brewery - it's hard to measure angles and distances underground, but I'd estimate that it loops about as far as a line drawn from Hunter Street.

At the top of the loop is a blocked-off inlet - a waste outlet from the brewery?

Before my time (or at least before my working life began), there used to be a outlet to the culvert from a CSO (combined sewer overflow) on the Garngad trunk sewer that runs generally parallel to it within Tennent's Brewery. The CSO was abandoned at some time but I'm not sure exactly when or how it was abandoned - it's possible the photo has something to do with the connection from the old CSO.

Another theory... I'm pretty sure I found a plan in our work archive (years ago so my memory of it isn't great) that indicated the site of a partial collapse (again before my working life) on a section of the culvert within the brewery - maybe the photo is related to some repair work that was undertaken.

BenCooper wrote:Cheers Alan

It's certainly an interesting trip - I'm not sure how far I got, but at least up to Alexandra Parade I think. Some old maps show the stream plit in two, which matches what I found.

Ben,

I think the split in the burn you are referring to was actually the merge of the Gads and Molendinar Burns - the location of the merge (or confluence if you prefer) was approx at the existing site of Armadale Path (just at the western end of Roebank Street).

The Gads Burn was culverted circa the mid to late 1800s and (as I mentioned in another post last night - on the St. Enoch's Burn subject) eventually became what is now the Garngad trunk sewer.

The twin pipe section you reached dates from the 60s (maybe 70s) when one of the last sections of open burn was culverted.

Steve, thanks very much for the info - that is a lot further than I thought I'd gone! It did look as if it was culverted over relatively recently.

You're quite right that one should be very careful doing this sort of thing, and I'd certainly strongly discourage anyone from attempting it without suitable equipment and awareness of the weather conditions - several people have been killed exploring culverts.

Glesga_Steve wrote:

BenCooper wrote:It definitely doesn't flow under the Necropolis- it goes right down Wishart Street. It does seem to loop under the brewery - it's hard to measure angles and distances underground, but I'd estimate that it loops about as far as a line drawn from Hunter Street.

At the top of the loop is a blocked-off inlet - a waste outlet from the brewery?

Before my time (or at least before my working life began), there used to be a outlet to the culvert from a CSO (combined sewer overflow) on the Garngad trunk sewer that runs generally parallel to it within Tennent's Brewery. The CSO was abandoned at some time but I'm not sure exactly when or how it was abandoned - it's possible the photo has something to do with the connection from the old CSO.

Another theory... I'm pretty sure I found a plan in our work archive (years ago so my memory of it isn't great) that indicated the site of a partial collapse (again before my working life) on a section of the culvert within the brewery - maybe the photo is related to some repair work that was undertaken.

I was curious as to where exactly on the culvert Ben took this photo so I did some checking at work.

It turns out it's at the former (recently abandoned) CSO just north of the Bridge of Sighs at Wishart Street. The Garngad sewer is approx 1.2m diameter at this point and, as you can see in the below photos, there was a very low sided weir that caused sewage flows to be spilled to the Molendinar on a regular basis. There were several poorly performing CSOs in this area and it was recognised that action was required to tackle the environmental problems this was causing in the burn. New CSOs were constructed at Hunter Street and Roebank Street to replace the poorly performing CSOs, which were then abandoned.

I've no idea what the length of timber is there for - it doesn't seem to be serving any practical purpose!

CSO pior to abandonment


Molendinar culvert viewed from sewer


Garngad sewer

That's definitely the same place, yes - maybe the timber supported a door to restict the overflow? It shows how hard it is to map things underground, though - I thought this was further south at the brewery.

Sewerage layout plans showing the northern section of the Molendinar Burn culvert (from the Great Eastern Hotel to Alexandra Gate) that Ben walked through. The culvert is shown as a (dashed or solid) green line.

I've uploaded them from north to south (as opposed to Ben's south to north 'outward' trip) so the overlap between plans is more easily recognisable.

The manhole at Alexandra Gate (in the centre of the first plan) is how far he reached. From the Great Eastern Hotel to here is just shy of a mile in length so, including the return journey, that's nearly a two mile walk!

Go to http://www.flickr.com/photos/29196299@N07/sets/72157616140531198/ if you want to view these plans in detail.

Alexandra Gate


Alexandra Parade

Route only shown on extreme left and right of plan - section in between not digitised

Wishart Street / Alexandra Parade


Wishart Street


Wishart Street


Tennent's Brewery / Wishart Street


Duke Street / Tennent's Brewery

Sewerage layout plans showing the southern section of the Molendinar Burn culvert (from the Great Eastern Hotel to Glasgow Green) that Ben walked through. The culvert is shown as a (dashed or solid) green line.

I've uploaded them from north to south. From the Great Eastern Hotel to the Clyde is about 1200m in length so, including the return journey, that's about a 1.5 mile walk.

The Camlachie Burn culvert can be seen, running east to west along Greendyke Street, joining the Molendinar culvert at the junction of Greendyke Street / Turnbull Street in the second last plan.

Go to http://www.flickr.com/photos/29196299@N ... 140531198/ if you want to view these plans in detail.

College Goods Yard

Part of culvert not shown on plan

Bell Street / Molendinar Street


St. Andrews Lane / James Morrison Street


Turnbull Street / Glasgow Green


Glasgow Green

Thank you very much for that - the first trip (northbound) wasn't too bad as it was downstream on the way back, but the second trip (southbound) was a bit of a slog on the way back. Trudging a mile and a half upstream, most of it bent double, is quite hard work

Ok, not the Molendinar this time but thought I would complete the set for the culvert sections that Ben walked through...

Sewerage layout plans showing the section of the Camlachie Burn culvert (from its merge with the Molendinar to Bridgeton Cross) that Ben walked through. The culvert is shown as a (dashed or solid) green line.

I've uploaded them from west to east. From the Molendinar to Bridgeton Cross is about 1350m in length so, including the return journey, that's over a 1.5 mile walk.

Go to http://www.flickr.com/photos/29196299@N ... 103655507/ if you want to view these plans in detail.

Greendyke Street


Greendyke Street / Glasgow Green


Glasgow Green


Glasgow Green


Greenhead Street / Silvergrove Street


Anson Street / James Street

put away the dowsing rods

here’s the route of the Molly from Viewpark Avenue to Hogganfield Loch

route from Hogganfield Loch to Frankfield Loch