Subway pre- and during modernisation - in colour!

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Re: EXPANSION

Postby james73 » Mon May 30, 2005 11:52 pm

radar wrote:I wonder what ideas they will come up with this time. In the late 60s, around the time of the GGPTE, there were proposals for expansion of the Subway which came to nowt. Later there was even talk of converting some of the "heavy rail" to "light rail". However some of the "heavy rail" projects have been realised, the Argyle Line, Maryhill line, Carmyle line and others about to happen like to Larkhall. Perhaps this time the Subbie will breakout of it's circle but is it really another circle that is needed or something a little more ambitious?

On the subject of Merkland Street station, the new Partick station, with interchange to the Blue Trains I think was built on top of the old Merkland Street station, or at the very least within a few feet of it.


The book 'Circles Under The Clyde' featured this image at the back of
the book. Whether or not any of these suggestions will come to fruition
remains to be seen. I'd hazard a guess that *if* any expansion proposals
actually happen, then it would more than likely use old railway line
formations.

Image



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Postby Strike Team » Wed Jun 01, 2005 5:33 pm

Is it really a good idea to extend the subway? It has quite a limited passenger capacity due to the narrow carriages (a consequence of narrow track gauge) and short platforms which limit train length. It may be possible to have more trains on the system using improved signalling though.

They're also talking about using the old rail tunnels for subway trains, which will be a problem given that much of the railway land has been built on. The "powers that be" also want to have a subway,light rail or similar serving Glasgow Harbour. A perfectly sensible idea, except that the disused railway embankment running past Glasgow Harbour, which would be perfect for various types of rail or even guided buses, is being demolished to make way for road realignment. Where's the joined up government?
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Postby Alycidon » Wed Jun 01, 2005 8:52 pm

Hi guys

I think any plans to extend the subway are a non starter. SPTE have in the past indulged themselves in some wild fanciful ideas as well as some well thought out and practical schemes. Remember the plan from the 1990s where they were going to build a heavy rail tunnel from West Street to Cowlairs, and divert all the traffic currently using Queen Street down this route. They threw a large wad of cash to some consultants to explore the possipilities of this scheme, despite it being so bloody obviously a non starter, basically because they wern't going to electrify it.
Down south in London the Underground has been expanded almost at will thanks to a freindly sub strata of clay that makes boring tunnels relatively easy and cheap. Glasgow's sub strata is more of a mixed bag of silt, sand, clay, rock and god knows what that would make tunnelling much more difficult and potentially dangerous, (remember the building of the Clyde Tunnel). The rebuilding of the subway in the 1970s went way over budget and took longer than expected - lesson learned??
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Postby Grahame » Wed Jun 01, 2005 10:31 pm

Alycidon wrote: Glasgow's sub strata is more of a mixed bag of silt, sand, clay, rock and god knows what that would make tunnelling much more difficult and potentially dangerous


Aye, good point Al. This is why the subway doesn't extend very far into the south side - the geology is too sandy to support tunnel boring. Possibly the technology exists now to do it, but it's definitely not good tunnelling material.
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Postby james73 » Thu Jun 02, 2005 12:13 am

Surely a lot of new tunnelling could be done cut & cover style, thus saving
a lot of time and money?



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Postby The Voyageur » Thu Jun 02, 2005 1:14 am

james73 wrote:Surely a lot of new tunnelling could be done cut & cover style, thus saving
a lot of time and money?



James H


Too much like a sensible idea for the Scottish Executive to consider! :roll:
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Postby Flyingscot » Sat Jun 04, 2005 10:36 pm

The extension is an interesting proposition. Technology has moved on and tunnelling is much easier now, if still expensive. I'll reserve judgement at the moment. I still say the best way they could spend that £800 million is an extension of the existing train lines to go Braehead, Renfrew, Airport, and Paisley Canal-Paisley West (serving the RAH)- Elderslie Junction and from Elderslie to Linwood, Bridge of Weir etc allong with Cross rail. All still just about possible and this would elivate pressure on the rail lines between Gilmour Street and Glasgow, and traffic on the M8.

As for being able to see the Merkland Street Station box. It is possible to see this. Just after Partick Station, the tunnel wall doesn't exist and you can see the other side of the tracks. It is very had to spot as unlike between Ibrox and Govan thereare no points, natural and incadescent light! The only way I spotted this was my train left just as one arrived (common due to Govan being the timing point and the fact that trains cannot procede until the next one has left the station ahead) and when I looked across I saw the other train!
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Postby Alycidon » Sun Jun 05, 2005 6:51 pm

Interesting information to support my argument comes from "An Illustrated History of Glasgow's Railways" by W.A.C. Smith and Paul Anderson.
They write in there section on the Glasgow City and District Railway (High Street to Stobcross.) "Geological conditions presented problems and some innovative engineering work was required. Fortunately much of the tunnelling took place in free-splitting sandstone but there was usually a cover of boulder clay, difficult to blast when dry yet a slithering mass when wet. East of Queen Street, a firm footing lay well below track level, so brick piers were sunk, in effect forming a deeply buried viaduct supporting the tunnel." "...engineers attempting the cut and cover technique along Kent Road between Finnnieston and Charing Cross encountered waterlogged sand which shifted alarmingly and the neighbouring tenements threatened to join the navvies in the trench!"

Not from this book but from another source wrote that "Sewers and other utilities also had to be diverted when using the Cut and Cover method and this given the sometime inaccurate nature of old plans caused further delays.

Even modern tunnelling methods depend on the strata through which the route is planned, for example the Channel Tunnel undulates quite a bit in order that the tunnel should cut through the most suitable chalk.
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Postby smartie » Thu Jun 09, 2005 2:56 pm

here is a pic of the first construction

Image
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Postby Vladimir » Thu Jun 09, 2005 4:12 pm

It really is shallow isn't it. Its no wonder the ground shakes like an earthquake in a lot of places 8O
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Postby james73 » Thu Jun 09, 2005 5:28 pm

Vladimir wrote:It really is shallow isn't it. Its no wonder the ground shakes like an earthquake in a lot of places 8O

The lines rise up towards each station - it's deeper underground than that
beyond each tunnel.



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Postby Flyingscot » Thu Jun 09, 2005 9:50 pm

Just think how close it is to the river kelvin at Kelvinbridge...

No wonder you hear water gushing!
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Postby crusty_bint » Fri Jun 10, 2005 1:07 am

Something i've always wondered about: why do the trains slow down so much between Cowcaddens and St Georges Cross? And why does it smell so bad there? Is there a main sewer line there or something?
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Postby Vinny the Mackem » Fri Jun 10, 2005 12:26 pm

crusty_bint wrote:Something i've always wondered about: why do the trains slow down so much between Cowcaddens and St Georges Cross?


Leaves on the line??? :D
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Postby scotia47 » Fri Jun 10, 2005 1:11 pm

crusty_bint wrote:Something i've always wondered about: why do the trains slow down so much between Cowcaddens and St Georges Cross? And why does it smell so bad there? Is there a main sewer line there or something?


There's a very tight curve just to the west of Cowcaddens station, requiring trains to slow down to a crawl. Dunno what could be causing the smell though.

I've got a query of my own here. When I was using the Subway fairly regularly during my time at university, trains between Cowcaddens and Buchanan Street travelled at a considerably lower speed on the outer circle than on the inner circle. Anyone know why?
Last edited by scotia47 on Sat Jun 25, 2005 10:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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