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souvenirs

Postby Dugald » Mon Dec 11, 2006 7:56 pm

That was a great story .. thanks


Roxburgh, I assume your post is with reference to the Govan POW story; thank you. Like your mother, I too had a box full of WWII insignia... past tense. I left all of mine at home when I emigrated and my father gave them all to the boy next door!

I had a lot of insignia, but I never had one with a red star and a hammer & sickle emblazoned on it. I'm sure there must have been a very interesting cloak-'n-dagger background to the acquisition of that badge; wonder what this French aristocrat in the SAS had been up to.

Neither did I have a flying officer's hat. A sad story. I didn't have the cap of someone who got killed, but I did have a tally-band off the destroyer HMS Exmouth, which went down in the Moray Firth right at the start of the war, and the person who gave it to me, the ship's leading signaler, went down along with her.

Cheers, Dugald.
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Postby gap74 » Tue Dec 19, 2006 1:20 am

Interesting link to pics of RAF fields, plans, bombing ranges and aircraft factories, with many Scottish examples, all taken by a bloke called Paul Francis in the early/mid 1980s:

http://s133.photobucket.com/albums/q51/norwichpaul/
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Postby Apollo » Tue Dec 19, 2006 1:52 am

Keep an eye on it over the next few weeks too, as there should also be fresh/new Scottish content uploaded there.
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Postby doonunda » Wed Dec 20, 2006 11:08 am

I was rereading the posts about HMS Hood on the bombs over glasgow thread. I remember watching a documentary about it (I may still have it on tape).
I decided to have a google on the subject and found this superb site.
http://www.hmshood.com/

Image
Firth of Forth, Scotland. 1939-10-16. Scene during the Luftwaffe's first attack of the war on the British mainland, when German enemy aircraft unsuccessfully bombed naval units. The Forth Bridge is easily identifiable, and the dark patches on the water indicate where bombs fell.
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Sinking of the 'Hood' revisited.

Postby Dugald » Wed Dec 20, 2006 12:18 pm

Doonunda, I had a good look at the 'Hood' site you recommended and found it very interesting. I wrote the following text on an anniversary of the sinking of H.M.S. Hood, and while there is nothing new in it, I thought it might give an indication of what the feelings were in Glasgow about the disaster, back in 1941.

On a Saturday afternoon, exactly 65 Years ago this day, I was playing in front of 65 Uist St. in Govan, when I heard a school classmate of mine shouting something at me out of his three-storey high tenement window. I stopped what I was doing and listened carefully to what he was shouting. What I heard stunned me and filled me with shock and disbelief. I knew the boy responsible for the grim tidings well, and knew he wouldn't be pulling my leg. He told me the British battle cruiser, H.M.S. Hood, had just been sunk in a battle with the German battleship "Bismark" and the heavy cruiser "Prinz Eugen", somewhere out in the North Atlantic.

The "Hood", the mighty "Hood", the Clyde-built 45,000 ton, eight-15"-gun, battle-cruiser, was the pride of the Royal Navy. The thought of this great ship being sunk by the "Bismark" disturbed me greatly, and I went home to find out what I could about this unmitigated disaster. There was more bad news associated with this sinking. The news informed us that she had gone down almost immediately and there were very few survivors. It proved to be the single largest loss of life for the Royal Navy during World War II... 1,415 were lost out of a crew of 1418.

The British had received information from sources in Scandinavia that the German battleship "Bismark", accompanied by the heavy cruiser "Prinz Eugen", had passed through Norwegian waters, around the North Sea, and out into the North Atlantic. Such ships roving around the Atlantic would have played havoc with Britain's already hard-pressed trans-Atlantic convoys.

The "Hood" accompanied by the new battleship "Prince of Wales", set out from Scapa Floe to hunt down the German ships. They eventually made contact with them, and the 'Hood' opened fire on what she thought was the 'Bismark', but was in fact the 'Prince Eugen'. In the short exchange of fire which followed, the 'Hood 'was hit by a shell from the 'Bismark' which pierced its magazine and she blew up immediately and disappeared very quickly. In this exchange of fire the 'Prince of Wales' was also damaged.

Notwithstanding the loss of H.M.S. Repulse and H.M.S. Prince of Wales off the Malayan coast later the same year, it is my feeling that the loss of the "Hood" was the most damaging loss, with regard to its affect on public morale, suffered by the Royal Navy during WWII. I recall very well the public reaction to this naval loss, and it seemed to me to have been felt much more than other Royal Navy losses. The 'Hood' was looked upon as the mightiest of all the mighty ships in the world ( despite being 22 years older than the 'Bismark'!), and here she was, sent to the bottom by Hitler's super battleship!

The British propaganda machinery got into high gear, and before many more days had passed, the hunt for the 'Bismark' was brought to the attention of all the whole world; the loss of the 'Hood' took second place in our minds to the hunt for the 'Bismark', involving all the major units of the British Home Fleet. Our minds were directed from our tragic loss, and focused directly on the chase to catch the "Bismark".

The 'Bismark' was caught and pounded mercilessly until it sank with great loss of life. Churchill told parliament that the 'Bismark' had got down 500 miles west of Brest. The "Prinz Eugen" reached the safety of the French coast. The whole affair now got a touch of the "Dunkirk treatment"... the sinking of the 'Bismark', overshadowed the loss of the 'Hood', and the 'Bismark'/ 'Hood' battle acquired the aura of a great British naval victory.

Well, who won this great naval battle? How do we determine a winner? Count the number of deaths? The dead numbered approximately the same for each ship; however, I think we won, because the 'Bismark' had been a much greater threat to us than the 'Hood' had ever been to the Germans. There are those however, who point to the fact that in terms of cost, it was much more costly to the British than to the Germans. It is pointed out that the 'Prince of Wales' had also been badly damaged, and after the great 'chase' many of Britain's capital ships were in dire need of major repairs. H.M.S. Rodney for example, in firing her 16" guns, had loosened so many rivets in her hull that she had to go into dry-dock in America for major repairs.

Sixty-five years after the sinking of H.M.S. Hood, I can still feel a touch of the great sorrow I felt over this great loss, that sunny Saturday on Uist St. in Govan.
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Postby Peekay » Sat Dec 30, 2006 5:56 pm

doonunda wrote:I was rereading the posts about HMS Hood on the bombs over glasgow thread. I remember watching a documentary about it (I may still have it on tape).
I decided to have a google on the subject and found this superb site.
http://www.hmshood.com/


Yeah I've seen it. I'm sure it's called "Hunt the Bismark" or it may be "Find" or "Sink". It was a Discovery programme with James Cameron of Titanic fame. They had a survivor from the Hood and a survivor from the Bismarck telling what it was like on board as they went looking. First they went to the Hood and laid a wreath there then went to see if they could find the Bismarck.

Which they did and duly sent down an Alvin!
Image
Bismarck Bow.

I can remember one of the surviving bits at the stern still has a huge big Swastika painted on it. Amazing sight. They laid a plaque on the Bismarck and threw a couple of wreaths in (one from each of the survivors) and had a wee silence. Great documentary if you get a chance.

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Re: Sinking of the 'Hood' revisited.

Postby catriona » Sat Dec 30, 2006 7:06 pm

Dugald wrote:Doonunda, I had a good look at the 'Hood' site you recommended and found it very interesting. I wrote the following text on an anniversary of the sinking of H.M.S. Hood, and while there is nothing new in it, I thought it might give an indication of what the feelings were in Glasgow about the disaster, back in 1941.

On a Saturday afternoon, exactly 65 Years ago this day, I was playing in front of 65 Uist St. in Govan, when I heard a school classmate of mine shouting something at me out of his three-storey high tenement window. I stopped what I was doing and listened carefully to what he was shouting. What I heard stunned me and filled me with shock and disbelief. I knew the boy responsible for the grim tidings well, and knew he wouldn't be pulling my leg. He told me the British battle cruiser, H.M.S. Hood, had just been sunk in a battle with the German battleship "Bismark" and the heavy cruiser "Prinz Eugen", somewhere out in the North Atlantic.

The "Hood", the mighty "Hood", the Clyde-built 45,000 ton, eight-15"-gun, battle-cruiser, was the pride of the Royal Navy. The thought of this great ship being sunk by the "Bismark" disturbed me greatly, and I went home to find out what I could about this unmitigated disaster. .........................

...............................................................................................................Sixty-five years after the sinking of H.M.S. Hood, I can still feel a touch of the great sorrow I felt over this great loss, that sunny Saturday on Uist St. in Govan.

Enjoyed reading your text, Dugald. As a young Govan lad, the loss of "The Mighty Hood" must have affected you deeply indeed.
Excellent post! Thank you.
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Postby elgee » Sat Dec 30, 2006 9:54 pm

I could almost feel your pain you described this so well. What a horrible memory for you to have carried through your life.
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Re: Sinking of the 'Hood' revisited.

Postby Peekay » Sat Dec 30, 2006 10:32 pm

Dugald wrote:The 'Bismark' was caught and pounded mercilessly until it sank with great loss of life. Churchill told parliament that the 'Bismark' had got down 500 miles west of Brest. The "Prinz Eugen" reached the safety of the French coast. The whole affair now got a touch of the "Dunkirk treatment"... the sinking of the 'Bismark', overshadowed the loss of the 'Hood', and the 'Bismark'/ 'Hood' battle acquired the aura of a great British naval victory. .


Just as a wee addy on to this bit too. The Fleet was never going to catch her (St Naziere I think she was heading). Ark Royal launched a couple of Swordfish with, what they laughed at at the time, small torpedos. It was one of these "small torpedos" that hit a one-in-a-million place at the rudder.

Admiral Lütjens sent the following message to Group West: "Ship unable to maneuver. We will fight to the last shell. Long live the Führer".

"The Admiralty decided that the destruction of the Bismarck was the highest-priority task facing the Royal Navy, and it was willing to take certain risks to achieve that goal. Admiral Somerville's Force H, standing by in Gibraltar was now committed to the pursuit".

All she (Bismarck) could do was turn in circles until it arrived!

Oddly enough it was damage sustained from the exchange with the Hood and Prince of Wales that slowed her down just enough to get within Swordfish range, otherwise she'd have been safely in St Naziere for repairs.

Off topic but in the same ballpark, my Uncle died on one of the X-craft going after the Tirpitz. They never found him! he got a post-humous shiny for it though.

PK

EDIT- Quiz question- I've just remembered that the Bismark is the only (surface) ship ever to be called "He" instead of "She". Hitler decided, in his usual sanity, that it was too powerful to be a Woman. The sailors all thought this was a curse on the ship. I'm sure U-boats were all "He" as well for the same reason.
Last edited by Peekay on Sun Dec 31, 2006 9:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Peekay » Sun Dec 31, 2006 6:27 am

A wee story from the 1893 Hood;

"A bitch to the last!" was one Royal Navy captain's verdict on HMS Hood, writes Kendall McDonald. She had just capsized as they were scuttling her across the southern entrance to Portland Harbour in 1914.
Perhaps the Hood didn't deserve that epitaph, but since her launch in 1891, the 14,150 ton armoured monster had become known throughout the fleet as a good looker, but a lousy sailer.
She was weighed down with heavily armoured turrets which the First Sea Lord, Sir Arthur Hood, had insisted were installed to house her big guns.
This extra weight lowered her freeboard so that she needed dead calm to proceed at speed, otherwise great green seas came aboard and the whole ship was covered in clouds of spray, making gunnery impossible.
So it is not surprising that shortly after her completion in 1893, the 380ft-long warship was sent to the calmer waters of the Mediterranean. She stayed there for nine years, was put on reserve duties and then transferred to Portland as a target for torpedo practices. Her guns were taken out - they had never once fired a shot in anger.
Shortly after the outbreak of World War One, on 4 November, 1914, the Hood was sunk across the southern entrance to Portland to stop any crafty U-boat commander firing torpedoes into the anchored Channel Fleet. But she didn't go quietly.
Once she was towed into position, the seacocks were opened so that she would sink gracefully and upright.
However, it took so long that the tide turned and started to pull her out of place. Explosives were hurriedly used to blow a hole in her side, she filled too quickly, did a port roll, and crashed completely upside down into the seabed.
Image

PK

PS- Just thought you might be interested in the previous "HMS Hood"
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Postby Peekay » Sun Dec 31, 2006 8:12 am

Found this! It's the entire life of the Bismarck without any bullshit.
http://www.bismarck-class.dk/bismarck/history/bisconstr.html
The info tells all the salvos that were crossed between Prince of Wales, Hood and others. It's a bit of a read!
Click "Next"

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Re: Sinking of the 'Hood' revisited.

Postby Dugald » Sun Dec 31, 2006 8:49 pm

catriona wrote:
Enjoyed reading your text, Dugald. As a young Govan lad, the loss of "The Mighty Hood" must have affected you deeply indeed.
Excellent post! Thank you.

Thank you very much Catriona, for your kind words. You're right, I did feel affected by the loss of the Hood. I guess I was one of the many people in the UK who had come to believe the Hood really was invincible...I think there was a touch of 'Titanicitus' there !
Cheers, Dugald.
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Postby Dugald » Sun Dec 31, 2006 9:08 pm

elgee wrote:I could almost feel your pain you described this so well. What a horrible memory for you to have carried through your life.

Thank you Elgee, for your kind comment. Yes, there is still some sorrow now when I think of what happened to the Hood, but the 'horrible memory' pales somewhat when viewed in the light of the whole war and the utter stupidity of war in general...I've long been a pacifist! Cheers Dugald.
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Postby Dugald » Sun Dec 31, 2006 9:27 pm

Hello Peekay, I thoroughly enjoyed reading your postings as well as your 'big read' (now that really was a 'big' read... even without getting deeply involved in the salvos!). Very enlightening stuff I must say. There has been so much written about this engagement, yet I still come across items of info which I'd never heard of before. This info, for example, about Hitler thinking the Bismark was too powerful to be a woman, is something new. Whether or not this was responsible for a curse on the ship, we'll never know; if it was, then one must wonder what the curse was on the Hood. Or was the Hood's demise simply the result of being another case of a 'good looker, but a lousy sailor', as was said about her 1893 predecessor (interesting story PK!)?
Yes, interesting stuff! Cheers, dugald.
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Postby Fossil » Mon Jan 01, 2007 1:59 am

I blame hiltler
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